@noelle I'm curious why you think lobsters has become even shittier?

@aleph It's invite-only, and anyone who disagrees with the zeitgeist doesn't get an invite to present their point of view.

@noelle I respectfully disagree, the only bar we had for entry was a github, a tech blog, or a twitter, really just some kinda of net presence and interest in tech followed by a decent reassurance you weren't joining to just shill a company or product. Do you have any metrics towards disagreeing with the Zeitgeist getting you disbarred from the site? As somebody involved with moderation after a fashion I'd actually greatly like to see that then.

@aleph It's possible I've been talking to the wrong people, but the one time I asked for an invite the person saw I was transgender and decided I "wasn't worth the drama", and the few times I've been back to the site since then, the posts I've seen have reinforced that position.

If that isn't the case I'm glad to hear it, but right now my impression of Lobsters is, actually, the proverbial crab pot.

@noelle Hmm, out of curiosity if you remember the name of the person you asked could you PM me the name?

@aleph I'm afraid I don't remember, I'm sorry.

@noelle That's perfectly alright then. Would you like an account then at all as well? :)

@aleph I appreciate the offer - let me calm down and get back to you. ;)

@noelle Not a problem at all if and when you want to, just pm an email it can be disposable and I'll send a account activation link to it. :)

@noelle Actually send all PM's to @aleph

I moved. :)

(I say "somehow", actually, but we know how: Lobsters is invite-only, and the initial influx of users were Hacker News users who were mad at how "progressive" HN was getting, so the only people who get invites are friends of the worst part of HN.)

@noelle And with a name like that, it _has_ to have been created by a Jordan Peterson stan

@sanspoint @noelle Nope, the site predates Jordan Peterson by... 5 years? We actually have it on the about page.

@sanspoint https://lobste.rs/about#michaelbolton

@noelle I am not at all challenging your experience but I find that odd; when I joined way, way, back it was at the invitation of a rather progressive friend and it was sold to me as _not_ techbro-y like Y Combinator was. It seemed good for the few stories I looked at.

That said, I'm not at all a regular user, so when I saw your first post I assumed it went to shit with the ownership change.

@zigg Huh. I have to assume it did, then, because the last few times I've seen posts there it's been people who would have been out of place on HN for being TOO regressive.

@noelle @zigg I will admit we have a few people who have as we found out created a number of sock-puppets. So it might be one of them, we do also have some members who while I might disagree with specific views they hold when they are presented with proof towards the contrary have worked on changing and bettering themselves. So perhaps it was an older post by one of them as well.

@noelle @zigg It seems it was a trend before the ownership change, but it seems to have gotten a lot worse since then. I recently deleted my account because it's become a toxic pit.

I'm not sure it has reached "worse than hacker news" though. But, you can be light years better than hacker news and still be a toxic waste dump.

@kurtm @noelle @zigg So how exactly has it become a toxic pit? I will admit the... queue of CoC threads people seem to love propping up and then arguing over tends to lead to toxic comments and something moderators are getting annoyed over. But otherwise the site community seems fine. Any specific instances that come to your mind? I have no problem talking about them.

@aleph @zigg @noelle @kurtm

Here's an example:

https://lobste.rs/s/nf3xgg/i_am_leaving_llvm#c_v4niod

That post is claiming that codes of conduct are a conspiracy by minorities to oppress white people.

It is far more bigoted and racist than anything I've ever seen on HN and it has 8 upvotes.

I stopped using lobste.rs after that thread. When people like nickp are not only allowed to stick around but actively encouraged, it's clear he community is beyond help. I had such high hopes after /u/stefantalpalaru was banned too.

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg To be frankly honest I think you're reading too much into it. Yes nickp is wrong at times but he updates his beliefs when shown new proof to the contrary. When he argues he doesn't argue from bad faith. Should we ban a person outright at the first sign of trouble or should we help them find a new path to walk? If we ban outright and always then nobody will chance and become better.

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg Do I entirely belief he is right? No. Do I entirely believe he is wrong as well? Also no.

@aleph @zigg @noelle @kurtm

seriously?

"The kinds of people that push CoC’s"

"Any words or behavior will be interpreted in the light of their views. This is double true when they get into the moderation positions, which they often aim for."

"These policies interpreted however they want are the leverage they use to reinforce their own groups or eject other groups"

All because the CoC says don't use discriminatory language or make discriminatory jokes.

How else do you read into this?

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg Yes he has some inflammatory views, admittedly I did also misread it partially. However in the words that he is fine with on a CoC "be friendly and patient, be welcoming, be considerate, be respectful, be careful in the words that you choose and be kind to others, and when we disagree, try to understand why." That showcases to me he isn't all bad. Like I said he never attacks anyone nor does he argue in bad faith.

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg And to be frank you chose the right move for you, you couldn't handle his views and/or couldn't handle ignoring him.

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg Well handle might be the wrong word. But I think my point got across for the most part?

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg To add one last remark, he does have a point about people viewing remarks and actions under the lens of their own believes and thought structures. We all do, we all have things we believe in and they can and do tend to bias us in regards to how we interpret what other people say.

@aleph @zigg @noelle @kurtm

He also mostly argues by making things up. He does it in technical discussions too. His posts are either about something utterly impracticable with no basis in reality, or are based on some "study" that he can't cite or name the authors of. Which is why I don't believe any of the claims he makes in his posts, ie. that he was banned from an unnamed forum for posting an undisclosed minority's unmentioned view.

@vi @kurtm @noelle @zigg @aleph You should get a medal for actually reading all the way through one of nitpicksecurity's posts. It takes superhuman time and patience to do that. 🥉 👏 🎊 🎉

@rocx @vi @noelle @zigg I try not to now. When I do, it feels like a little piece of my soul dies.

@noelle the same sort of ratcheting mechanism that sorts Nazis into /pol/

@noelle You might already have read this, so just in case: jcs wrote about what made him start the site here: https://jcs.org/notaweblog/2012/06/13/hellbanned_from_hacker_news/

I'm sad he left lobsters eventually but I respect his choice. He's a nice and caring character as far as I can tell from the few times we talked in person.

I'm also much less active on the site than I used to be because the vibe slowly but surely got increasingly offputting over time 😕 At least it's still community-owned.

I've given up on HN completely.

@noelle Hey, I try to be nice everywhere and I try to be nice on Lobsters too, and whoever said trans people aren't welcome should not be welcome themselves. One of our sysops, Irene, is trans, and we only have three of those.

https://lobste.rs/u/Irene

There is some crap on Lobsters, but don't lose heart. I think at least the more level-headed opinions in that LLVM thread were upvoted more.

@noelle Eep, to be clear, we only have three sysops, not only trans people.